Volume II · Episode 4 · Transcript
Safety & Trust in the Age of AI
Full transcript of the recorded conversation.
Back to the episode · timestamps jump to the video · lightly machine-transcribed, may contain errors
0:00 Sabino Marquez
By treating every operational thing as a cost to be cut, lowest denominator, get humans out, let's automate everything. And now there's no reason to trust your company. I'll trust you as much as I trust a robot from Walmart. And I don't trust those very much at all.
0:24 Sam Rogers
Welcome to Signals and Subtractions. So, one of the things that has changed in the world since the onset of AI is how everyone is drowning in responsible AI paperwork, starting to suspect that maybe it doesn't do so much. Well, today's guest is happy to explain how he sees that. This is Sabino Marquez, who has experience.
being a CISO, advising CISOs as Chief Information Security Officer for the uninitiated. He's also happens to be the Canadian ambassador to the Global Council on Responsible AI.
So this is a discussion about safety and trust in the age of AI. Welcome Sabino. Great to have you here for your signal and subtraction.
1:17 Sabino Marquez
Thank you, Sam. Thank you for having me.
1:18 Sam Rogers
so I'd love to start off with just a little of your journey of having been a stalwart defender of the compliance mindset, and having that obligation on behalf of different organizations and how things have shifted for you since then.
1:36 Sabino Marquez
Man, I I was forged in the old world, I came up in in the nineties where when you built a technical business or introduced technology into your business, it it had to be protected because that technology investment was a material advantage for you in the market. It was before everything was commoditized, right?
1:53 Sam Rogers
Yeah. Yeah.
1:57 Sabino Marquez
what I found was that compliance became the dominant paradigm in the early two thousands after all of the corporate scandals of the turn of the century.
the the world comms and enrons and all of those brought on Sarbanes
2:10 Sam Rogers
Right.
2:10 Sabino Marquez
Oxley and then s and then the era where technology was a strategic executive function that led the business kind of got put under the Sarbanes Oxley and GLBA umbrella where the CFO now controlled IT general controls and risk management and compliance became the job. And it didn't used to be that way.
So I
2:32 Sam Rogers
Mm.
2:32 Sabino Marquez
was there for that transition and I was like, all right, I guess we're doing compliance now. And what I found was that the more compliance you did, the less safety you could prove you were providing. Because the compliance frameworks that we were all following aren't really centered on value safety. They're centered on risk management for
2:51 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
2:51 Sabino Marquez
a company moving at full speed that won't stop. Right.
we're com we're complying around the wrong objects. compliance just measures,
the cheapest way to check this box because it becomes a race for operational efficiencies rather than what it should be, which is this machine, is this capital machinery running to its maximum potential? And it only does that when it considers value safety, which is one of our our our guiding concepts in trust value management.
3:18 Sam Rogers
Yeah, well I was on the other side of all that around the same time being the cheapest answer to the question juggling all those check boxes of who took what training I was on the learning and development side on the HR tech side and all that.
3:32 Sabino Marquez
the reason you do this kind of work, Sam, is because you have a strong defenders spirit. You you see something valuable and you're just called to defend the value. But the problem is that the business doesn't see us in that way. It sees us as a security-shaped answer to a security-shaped problem between them and the dollar they want. And what's the cheapest way to answer that that that hole that sh that it's shaped like you?
It's how a CISO ends up accountable for every trust creating practice in the business without being empowered to run that trust making machine. and
4:05 Sam Rogers
Yes.
4:05 Sabino Marquez
then I I I became disillusioned with compliance because of that, because what when I was doing compliance for a living, I'm like the reason we do compliance is so that people can act safely in defense of this valuable thing that we're defending.
after really thinking about it, it turns out that I wasn't hired nobody's hired to defend anything valuable because the business may not really understand what it has that's valuable. It it's running a playbook, usually written by someone else, right?
4:29 Sam Rogers
Yeah. Yeah.
4:31 Sabino Marquez
they're like, I'm on the I'm on I'm trying to get as much growth as possible in the short amount of time for the lowest cost, and I keep running into this pothole that looks like Sabino.
And Sabino,
4:42 Sam Rogers
Mm.
4:42 Sabino Marquez
can you just fill this pothole so I can run my troops over? And that's what compliance became. And
4:48 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
4:48 Sabino Marquez
the idea that you could differentiate your business with trust kind of got left in the dot-com, you know, back when we were building and selling trust as an industry. and and that's how we ended up getting to this point where where where you have to re recontextualize what compliance does versus what it is.
Because almost all compliance activities generate exactly zero value. Because the reason we do compliance, again, I'm gonna spell it out, is so that other people can feel safe enough to give you the value that they hold in their hands. Show me all the compliance things. Why? Because I need to make sure that.
This thing that I'm gonna run through your system or your company is safe when it goes in, safe when it gets there, and when it comes out, it's as valuable as it was when I gave it to you, plus the value you're giving me. And that's a very different mission than compliance,
5:44 Sam Rogers
Yeah. Yeah.
5:46 Sabino Marquez
I used to audit. I was an auditor for many years and I treated audits very seriously because I thought their function was to tell us something true about reality while there was still time to act.
see compliance people, like finance people live face to face with actual, unchanging, empirical, punch you in the face reality. That's what we look at every day.
And then our job is to present that reality to people who are not required to consider it in the running of their playbooks because of something I write about a lot, which is the trap of the trusted advisor, in which
6:20 Sam Rogers
Right.
6:20 Sabino Marquez
you're you're you're told that you're you're important. Sam, you're a CAIO. You're a C I S O. We can't do it without you. Of course you're allowed to be in the room.
But you know what? You don't really have a business to run, do you? You don't you don't predict the number and deliver it. You're just advise, right? Like lawyers? All right.
6:39 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
6:40 Sabino Marquez
I'm gonna treat you like a lawyer. My lawyer tells me don't break the law all the time, but you know what? We gotta make money here. And and
6:46 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
6:47 Sabino Marquez
and and the advisory frame traps change
I spent a lot of time, maybe 10 years, in the enterprise software space. And the enterprise software space is essentially companies with proprietary data needing to make sure that you're safe enough to give that proprietary data to.
In your software, so you can process that data and then give them back value. you get essentially the family jewels in those types of businesses, really valuable data. So the we're selling to the Fortune 50. If you've ever sold to the Fortune 50, you know the type of due diligence processes that they run on you. They they come in and they count every armpit hair one by one, Sam. Look.
And and and and they have an atlas of armpits, you know, to that that that's
7:31 Sam Rogers
Ha ha ha.
7:32 Sabino Marquez
the level of diligence. And if one is out of place, they want a discount, they want special considerations, they want contractual,
7:35 Sam Rogers
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
7:39 Sabino Marquez
you know, it like it's a mess. And so I said, you know, these people, these people on the other side of the table are just like me. They're trying to, you know, do the job to protect the company. it's like pulling teeth because
Companies like mine typically don't make the investments necessary to project trust in evidence. You know, companies that are startups never invest in this. So we had to figure out a business system rather than a technical system that would make the company move in a way that the evidence the company generated was, hey, you can trust us. we found that, and I can say this now because it's been many years.
I used to have a PDF with a script that it would open and it would you know pull down a transparent GIF and it would let me know that somebody somewhere opened one of the PDFs. And I did that because I wanted to know. Yeah, basically a tracking pixel. Because
8:24 Sam Rogers
A tracking pixel essentially. Yeah.
8:28 Sabino Marquez
I wanted to know this company spends $125,000 a year on their service audits and penetration tests.
They spend X tens of thousands a year on all this software to detect every kind of threat in the world. They hire people like me and give me a team to bring all this compliance and security and safety and com and risk and stuff together. Now, now that I have all that documentation, is anybody looking at it? And the answer sadly was no. Because what I found was when you sent them a couple of documents, they would open a couple of documents. But
9:02 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
9:03 Sabino Marquez
when you sent them,
Your trust story composed of 40 documents woven to of a pure evidence of their safety in your hands. So rather than sending them compliance things, When I give somebody a bucket of
compliance and security documents, I'm asking them to assemble a puzzle without without what the cover looks like. It's burden for them, it's labor for them. They
9:26 Sam Rogers
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
9:29 Sabino Marquez
what they really need is to is to is to look at the thing I sent them, whatever it is, and then feel emotions about it. Because one of the models we follow is that no matter how technical you are or how analytical you think your job is, data
9:45 Sam Rogers
Mm.
9:46 Sabino Marquez
makes you feel.
And what we found is that when we organize all of that compliance, data in the form of stories that are told to people's pain. you're the IT guy, you're the security guy, you're the privacy guy, you're the compliance guy, you're the procurement guy, you're the lawyer.
You're the insurer, you're the regulator, you're the auditor, and all of them are going to look at the same bucket of evidence, but the way it needs to land on them is different. So you have to tell different
10:16 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
10:16 Sabino Marquez
stories with the same evidence, which is why when you run security and compliance and blah, blah, blah as a trust practice, you're treating the company as a factory that generates documented evidence of you being safe when
10:32 Sam Rogers
Hm.
10:32 Sabino Marquez
other people give you something valuable.
10:35 Sam Rogers
Mm-hmm.
10:35 Sabino Marquez
And that
you return that value plus when people engage you. And when they engage you, they are safer. They don't have to worry about breaches with you, or they don't have to worry like you respond within X amount of time, you keep your SLAs, you're trustworthy. You're no longer a vendor or a supplier, you're a partner.
And then the customer leads with safety once you let them know they're safe. my god, I'm safe I'm safe here. My career
10:59 Sam Rogers
Mm-hmm.
11:00 Sabino Marquez
is safe. I made a good decision coming here. My bonus is safe. My team is enabled by these capabilities. Yeah, there's another widget seller.
Who has a 10% better widget, but is it really worth the risk of
11:12 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
11:12 Sabino Marquez
knowing that these people are there for me? Look, when I turn my back, they keep acting like like people. They're like, they're like they're like good. They keep me in the center. I feel like I'm in the center of their model. I'm not just a subscription to them. I can sense it in my body Like you you feel the trust.
And then other companies really can't compete because you can't buy that. That's just your company running in a trustworthy manner. Trust value management.
11:38 Sam Rogers
Well, thank you for that breakdown of how that actually works, like in a in a manufacturing sense. Like that's a that's
11:47 Sabino Marquez
Yeah.
11:47 Sam Rogers
a great analogy to use there. I think it's time for your signals
11:52 Sabino Marquez
my signal is that everyone doing AI compliance things is really just doing AI procurement things. Because what are we complying to? We're complying to a way to make this thing buyable, movable, purchasable, integratable. They're selling insurance to offload the risk of doing it. You know what I mean? I
12:11 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
12:11 Sabino Marquez
think that all that is important, but it's the wrong thing. It's the wrong first question.
The first question is AI value safety. Is it going to keep my value safe in its custody and return it plus new value?
12:24 Sam Rogers
with safety and trust being so much in the news like just today as we're recording this, the OpenAI report of hacking hugging face with their own internal model basically breaking out of the lab
to hack the test so that it could pass it. It doesn't know not to do that. Like to your point, it doesn't have the concept
12:46 Sabino Marquez
Yeah.
12:47 Sam Rogers
of where where the bounds are. I just wanted to remind everyone that when it comes to trust.
AI is much more like people than it is like computers.
13:00 Sabino Marquez
Yes.
13:00 Sam Rogers
the deterministic systems that we're used to working with with computers over the last fifty years or so. But when it comes to AI, it's much more like
You just hired somebody off the street and it's day one on every conversation because it's like talking to someone with amnesia, it's their first day all the days. they can be trusted to mess certain things up. If you just hire someone off the street
And they tell you that they did something and they did it right and they did it well. You you check, right? You you would look at the work, you would be able to evaluate it. You might have some standards that you thought about in advance, you might have some standards that you use for hiring and bringing that person in. If someone's new to your team, you don't just give them the keys to your kingdom on the first day. You make sure that those are someplace that they can't access as a matter of architecture.
Like you keep those keys. They're not just hanging out where they could be grabbed.
That enforcing a certain pattern of behavior in this realm. You're about to disagree with me, and I'd love to hear it.
14:10 Sam Rogers
Okay.
14:10 Sabino Marquez
Because since safety is a feeling, how can an
14:13 Sam Rogers
Hmm.
14:13 Sabino Marquez
AI know safety?
Right? and that's the that's the design question.
we're making first principles errors with AI here. AIs can't be safe because you're the one who has to be safe.
I bring this back to Responsible AI. Okay.
14:27 Sam Rogers
Mm.
14:28 Sabino Marquez
I spent two years as the ambassador, the Canadian ambassador for the Global Council for Responsible AI.
responsible AI is a little bit like responsible ownership of a bull in an apartment.
14:40 Sam Rogers
Ha ha ha.
14:42 Sabino Marquez
Sure, you can responsibly feed the bull and take it out to poop and but that's it's not but the the the
14:46 Sam Rogers
Ha ha ha.
14:48 Sabino Marquez
problem is not your responsible use of the bull in the it's the bull in the apartment, right? A a AI
14:53 Sam Rogers
Yeah, yeah.
14:54 Sabino Marquez
is kind of like this. AI it is a force amplification technology. And I use technology
15:00 Sam Rogers
Right.
15:01 Sabino Marquez
in in the in the social science way, it allows the the machine to
Amplify whatever force I'm projecting. If I'm creating value, I'll create more value. If
15:11 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
15:11 Sabino Marquez
I'm extracting value, I'll extract more value. If I'm destroying value, I'll destroy more value. If I'm
15:16 Sam Rogers
Right.
15:17 Sabino Marquez
screwing you, I'll screw you better. If I'm serving you, I'll serve you better. Because it's not the AI. It's not the AI. It's what humans are doing with the AI. And they do what they always do. When given a bigger stick, you swing it. When I can amplify my force, my
Goals, my desires, my plans, my reach, my expanse, all of that is what AI is.
This is a capability. it makes an individual able to expend the force of 10. It's like drone warfare. We used to need humans with guns and boots to express force.
Now we send drones. Same force, lower cost, lower energy, same force result. And that's kind of what AI is. And because of that, I don't think that there's responsible use of it. I think that there's only safe use of it, like a gun. And I apply gun safety models, weapon safety, ordnance safety models to think about how.
AI will touch the things I value.
So if you think about AI in that context, value safety is literally capital S safety, because AI things are pointed at you by people to do the things they want.
And that's kinda how I came to the fact that it's not ethical AI, it's not responsible AI, it's not consensual AI, it's not compliant AI. What you want is a safe AI and no programs, no audits, nothing on the market today is asking the question and answering it, is this thing safe for my value? And that's how we got
16:57 Sam Rogers
Mm.
16:58 Sabino Marquez
to the concept of value safety.
17:02 Sam Rogers
Well, we didn't plan to talk about this, but I'm curious about your thoughts US government intervention and the release of certain models. Now the Chinese government is threatening to do the same thing. We're also threatening to ban their models because they're too
17:16 Sabino Marquez
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
17:17 Sam Rogers
dangerous, like open source models, not just closed source controlled
17:20 Sabino Marquez
Yes, yes.
17:21 Sam Rogers
ones,
17:21 Sabino Marquez
this proves the point. AI is a sovereign technology. What are nation states, sovereigns. sovereigns understand AI in the force amplification frame that I just explained to you. So that's why you're gonna make Chinese AIs illegal or protect American AIs or make it illegal to export the AI, or make transporting AIs across state lines eventually regulated, because
AIs are weapons. They're telling you by their behavior. They're
17:47 Sam Rogers
Mm.
17:48 Sabino Marquez
telling you by their behavior. it'll always look like freedom in whatever country you're in, right? But it's it's but it is what it is. It is a a a technical enclosure.
And AI enables you to scale and do this. The Stasi could never do this. You could never do this with Stalin. You needed
18:04 Sam Rogers
Hm.
18:05 Sabino Marquez
billions of people doing that kind of work, and AI allows that kind of amplification.
AI is a weapon that makes cat pictures. Right? And that it makes cat pictures does not yes, not cute like
18:14 Sam Rogers
Yes, now cute has learned to kill. Yes.
18:18 Sabino Marquez
it's a kitten with a Kalishnikov, you know?
Right now, all of the technologies and methodologies available to professionals in legitimate corporate worlds are about procurement. ISO this and SOC2 that. And and the only reason you even need those is because someone wants to buy it and you gotta check the boxes. But the boxes being checked are not safety boxes, and value is being irrevocably destroyed every day by AIs because it's not being used safely. I am not anti-AI.
But I am anti-extractive and coercive with impunity AIs that serve nakedly to amplify incentive at the expense
18:58 Sam Rogers
Mm.
18:58 Sabino Marquez
of the stakeholder's value. Because the stakeholder is not just the shareholder, Sam. It's everybody who gets value from your company being trustworthy. And that's employees and customers, sometimes competitors, definitely your partners, you know, and your community.
19:13 Sam Rogers
Yeah. Yeah.
19:15 Sabino Marquez
Everyone who
19:16 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
19:16 Sabino Marquez
depends on you being trustworthy gets value. having had had conversations for two years now, I go into rooms filled with all kinds of leaders, Sam.
And they asked me about AI this and that, and I underscored to them to to temper their exuberance, because they believe they can replace humans.
19:37 Sam Rogers
Mm.
19:38 Sabino Marquez
The if everybody believes they can replace humans, that's dangerous. But everybody's incentive is so short term, it doesn't matter if you replace your humans, I'll get punished if I don't replace mine. the best we can do as as not just advisors, but trust leaders who are trying to lead organizations human beings can give their value to.
Is help our leaders understand the risk of removing all the friction from the machine, of not having brakes.
We're entering an era of unrestricted velocity. Here's my lesson.
20:10 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
20:11 Sabino Marquez
Here's the big subtraction. We're entering an era of unlimited, unrestrained velocity. And in that era, responsible and ethical and consensual and comp all these fig leaves are created for the purpose of accelerating the adoption of and
Making it go, making it go. There is no responsible use of AI. That's a subtraction. There is no ethical use. There is no compliant use. There is only safety of your value, of of of the value that your company has created, which you may not have even inventoried because you don't know why you're valuable.
20:51 Sam Rogers
Hm.
20:51 Sabino Marquez
This is one of my most common conversations. Why does your company hold value? because we have contracts. Okay. What else? we
our our our GitHub repo. Like like
21:04 Sam Rogers
Ha ha ha.
21:05 Sabino Marquez
you know, like like they don't understand that companies made of humans are valuable because of the synthesis of humanity and everything, all the yucky human stuff leaders hate to talk about.
21:17 Sam Rogers
Well thanks for throwing the subtraction in there I would like to offer something that I think is a compliment to what it is that you're you're
21:25 Sabino Marquez
Yeah, yeah.
21:26 Sam Rogers
saying that I've been seeing more lately, there's this phrase human in the loop that gets used a lot, as if it's some kind of quality assurance, just because there's a person that's pressing a button as opposed to a machine.
pressing a button.
There are reasons, cultural reasons, why we w might want to have a human in the loop, especially at this stage, but ultimately it's the ownership of the process. It's the business value that we're holding is owned by humans, not by machines. And when we
21:59 Sabino Marquez
That's correct.
21:59 Sam Rogers
can take the full end-to-end approach to whatever loops you're making, I know there's a lot of loopy talk these days
However, it is not protection from anything, and it doesn't necessarily help.
if you've pressed that button 47 times before lunch and you press that button again 48 and go to lunch, chances are the button that you're pressing isn't quite the awareness that is needed for that process.
22:24 Sabino Marquez
Yeah, yeah. We're we're applying
industrial control mindsets This is not a power plant dashboard with dials and knobs. You know what I mean? It it's a sovereign capability. the human in the loop question is interesting because the human in the loop is just like the the engineers sitting at the Chernobyl dashboard. They may they're
22:47 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
22:47 Sabino Marquez
not nuclear engineers, they just ride the dashboard.
22:50 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
22:50 Sabino Marquez
the real conversation is the human conversation about what we're gonna use this for. many technologies allow you to mask human defect, but this amplifies human defect.
Because you think that you're just gonna use it and it's gonna just gonna do the thing. And it will, but it's gonna do all of the thing, including all your bad things.
means I have to, in my decision making, actually consider the harms of doing the business the way that I do. And ha and I'll use harms in quotes, because it's the harm to trust. To
23:21 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
23:21 Sabino Marquez
to to running your business in a way that evades doing the right thing because you're you think you can outrun your own consequences.
the majority of velocity focused operators I see don't seem to realize that a benefit of velocity is outrunning every explosion they set behind them as they're running. So they can get the benefit of being propelled by the explosion and not have to stick around for the wreckage the wreckage of running your company in an extractive and coercive manner that destroys the capacity to be trusted at all. Because you think you can do a better marketing push.
Or you think you can put a poster on the wall about your values, or you'll discount your mess ups for a couple of quarters, the customer will get over it. No, it like like like this is not a good way to run a business. And and and I've been doing this long enough to be able to say that. every successful business that created conditions, and I'm gonna say this clearly, for sustainable value creation was a trustworthy business.
And every business that treated every quarter like war was an untrustworthy business. And they were so because of their operations and the way they composed them.
Everyone's looking for an exit somehow or another raise or something else. That's two-thirds of
24:37 Sam Rogers
Yeah. Yeah.
24:39 Sabino Marquez
the economy. It's been so financialized. How is this thing valuable? How does it add? Well why is source code or a well-written contract or my financial data or our pricing logic or the customer histories we've developed or the institutional judgment our leaders have?
accrued or the research we have done into the market and the product or the meaning of our brand. These things are value. They're not raw material you try to transform into value. They're the value of the company itself. And so when you give these value of the company itself objects to AI, you know what is degradation look like?
25:18 Sam Rogers
this has been fantastic And I love being grounded in the technology enough and and having had so many of these conversations for so many years to then still keep that
ethics element as as something that's
25:31 Sabino Marquez
Yeah.
25:31 Sam Rogers
actually alive and not just a not just a checkbox somewhere.
25:36 Sabino Marquez
No, not alive. It's more
profitable. Treating people well makes you more money. I I know I know it's revolutionary and you're But but
25:45 Sam Rogers
Ha ha ha.
25:46 Sabino Marquez
but it turns out that if people trust you, they'll just they'll just keep giving you money. You won't have to resell them. They'll refer their friends to I mean it's incredible what happens when you don't run your company like a hamburger grinder.
the value is the human. There is no human in the loop. Okay. Let me close that. There is no human
26:05 Sam Rogers
Sure.
26:06 Sabino Marquez
in the loop with me.
There there is a safely designed force amplification system or a negligently designed force amplification system. no amount of control can guarantee safety, which is where we are now. Because as I said, we're entering
26:23 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
26:23 Sabino Marquez
a an era of unlimited force amplification with AI, and safety is gonna be the number one buying criteria, even before.
Price and quality. You know the triangle? Right? price, you know,
26:35 Sam Rogers
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:36 Sabino Marquez
quality, okay. I've been doing this system for 10 years, and it's made about a half a billion dollars more for my companies than would have been made had we not done this. We exited at higher values, raised more in the rounds,
sold more faster at lower costs higher ACVs every every metric that makes a CFO rub their hair with mayonnaise is the metrics
26:59 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
27:00 Sabino Marquez
that we were affecting when we were running a trust value system. So I'm not I'm not preaching. I'm describing. I'm
27:07 Sam Rogers
Yeah.
27:07 Sabino Marquez
describing this works and we and and and we we give it away. because you can't sell this. it's it's the better way.
It's like I used to walk on one foot, now I walk on two. I'm not gonna charge for that. You have two,
27:20 Sam Rogers
Ha ha ha.
27:21 Sabino Marquez
you have two feet, go walk on two feet, right? So
27:25 Sam Rogers
Well
that's that's a that's a perfect segue, I think, into now a word from our sponsor.
What is the price of trust? Every organization depends on it.
Buyers price it into deals, employees price it into effort, customers price it into loyalty, investors price it into risk. Yet most companies still can't see it until it's gone. Trustable builds instruments for measuring current trust value and designs operating conditions that compound trust over time. Trustable. Measure trust where value flows.
so if people wanted to find you and what it is that you're developing, where do they go? How do they keep track of Sabino Marquez?
28:12 Sabino Marquez
we have a website at trustable dot TV, which is very consulting focused, but it it lets you get in contact with us for all the other things.
And also if you do trust work for a living, are you a CIO, CISO, do you work in security, risk, compliance, legal? Are you in finance? I keep an ongoing blog called trustclub.tv,
where I publish the majority of the system, in usually in the form of essays and instruments And so for people that want to do business with us, I send them to trustable.tv. But people who want to be trust value leaders,
the trust system overlays your company. It doesn't replace your company. Your leaders can still have their values you can measure trust value in the company and
28:54 Sam Rogers
well it's been fantastic
28:54 Sabino Marquez
Yes.
28:55 Sam Rogers
having you here.
appreciate your perspective and expertise and well-rounded approach to safety and trust and and what has changed in the age of AI and what hasn't. thanks so much for being here, Sabino.
29:11 Sabino Marquez
Thank you so much for having me, Sam. It was a pleasure.
29:13 Sam Rogers
Thanks so much for joining. We live stream on Wednesday. We do a polished podcast out by Friday, and on Sunday there's the newsletter.
See ya soon at SigSub Dot Show.