Who Owns the Direction

0:00 Omar Ladak

the fundamental question that's being asked is not what is all the data saying or what are all these numbers. The numbers are information into a very straightforward sounding question. How are we doing and why? And how are we doing is more complicated than did we make money this month?

0:30 Sam Rogers

Welcome to Signals and Subtractions. I'm your host, Sam Rogers. Where do you sit on the gradient from owner to operator? What can you hand over, and what stays with you when you hand it over?

there's a lot of talk these days about alignment and about governance, especially when it comes to AI. But I just want to remind folks out there those aren't really new terms. We've been aligning and we've been governing for a while. And some of those same kinds of mindsets and approaches in the human world lend a lot to what it is that we're doing these days in a more technical sense.

my guest today is Omar Ladak. co-founder of Noverra Group.

Which is six construction and industrial services companies Fire sprinklers, concrete, mechanical repiping, asbestos, no outside passive equity, and no exit horizon. a different framing than

The fast-acting AI businesses out there.

everyone's talking about AI, they have a thesis, but they don't necessarily have accountability around that. Omar has accountability no responsibilities that he's designed for himself.

But the accountability is strong.

Omar is

a certified director. He spent seven years on the YPO British Columbia Board, including as chair. to Omar, I was just Denise's husband, but I've been genuinely inspired by the question that we're exploring today. So, Omar, thank you so much for being here. Really glad to have you.

2:05 Omar Ladak

Appreciate it.

2:05 Sam Rogers

let's get to it.

what is the kind of signal that you're watching these days that you'd like to explore?

2:12 Omar Ladak

the idea of what is signal is really driven by what game you're playing.

2:17 Sam Rogers

Mm-hmm.

2:17 Omar Ladak

If I'm

playing the game called IT Security Services in Bangalore, then what is signal and what is noise is really different than if I'm playing the game called building single-family residential houses in northern California. for me, where I got to a number of years ago is the game that I'm playing is a game called Life. And in that game, the signals that I'm trying to learn to pay more

And more attention to are the ones that are inside me

the deepest part of the answer for me is really a personal one. the more practical answer, for the business folks that are in the audience is we really do start the with the customer, and then I'm the customer of my life. And so that's the way these two things link together.

3:00 Sam Rogers

That's a great framing.

3:01 Sam Rogers

a customer of your own life. I'd love to expand on that a little bit if you would.

3:06 Omar Ladak

Sure. So I'll give a little bit of the journey. as an engineer I can kind of go through the steps I took to get to where I'm at. as transparently as I can. so I went down a path from when I was relatively young to

thirty five or so in which I really was building a business I worked constantly and by some great luck as well as hard work and all those things I had unusual successes with my first business partners and if I'm totally honest about it, I just wasn't very happy. I mean I I mean we were making lots of money and we were very successful people and I didn't feel really inside any differently than when I had almost nothing.

And so I thought, well, this doesn't really seem to be the right answer. I wasn't the fastest learner, but you thought, well, I'm ticking off, all these boxes in order to feel good and I didn't feel good. And so I thought, hm. So then I went went about sitting for a long time and thinking about what I had gotten wrong and I came to the conclusion that well, maybe I'm just focused too exclusively on one thing in my life. So I I really did

work to balance myself, which was really just creating another set of tick boxes. I started to get healthy and I had good relationships my relationship with my wife was good and my relationship with my parents and I had good friends and dot dot I had this beautiful balanced wheel of life which was much better. So I'm not gonna suggest that it wasn't much better. It was much, much, much better. But I was fortyish.

at this point now and I had increased the business success and I still honestly didn't feel that different inside. And I thought I I really am missing something. like something is not making sense. The output is only marginally different than when I was doing something really, really unhealthy.

And so that that led me towards I think his name is Naval Ravikant

something like that. Somebody

4:47 Sam Rogers

Yes, yes.

4:48 Omar Ladak

gave me a book that he had written call called The Almanac. He didn't even write it. I think it was a set of tweets or something. I I I don't

4:52 Sam Rogers

Yeah. Yeah. Naval's almanac,

that's great. Yeah.

4:56 Omar Ladak

Yeah, I

don't remember any of it except for one tweet, which was new problems, new solutions. Old problems, old solutions. That was all it was. if I gotta fix my iPhone, that's a pretty new problem. I gotta go find a new solution to that 'cause iPhones have only existed for you know so many years.

But if I want to live a good life, I bet that's been a problem that's been around for as long as there've been humans. So maybe I should go look for the oldest viable solution to this problem. so I just started reading lots of very, very old things and absorbed myself in deep into meditation practice and slowly started paying more attention to the inside signals in my own life, in my own body.

And that slowly guided me towards a very different sort of energy by which I'm approaching business and my family and my life. And and I'm by no means like some perfected being. or any of that. But it does feel

5:49 Sam Rogers

Yeah.

5:50 Omar Ladak

very, very different to pay attention to the signals that are inside me and with an increasing amount of confidence.

to not compare them in some way to the things that might come from outside of me. So I'm not sure how much that sort of answers the question,

6:05 Sam Rogers

well, it is it is exactly relevant. So today as things are speeding up and moving more and more at exponential speeds in the business world, your instinctual approach to dim the input channels

and be very selective about when that is new information

Old information that stood the test of time is a better choice for you to manage that capacity of information flow. that's why I wanted to have you on today. The position that you are in, where you are more owner than operator.

Of the businesses is directly analogous, I think, to the position that so many people now find themselves in being the owner over agentic actions without being the operator of those actions. And how it is that we create that intention, first of all, and then express that, how it is that we monitor that alignment.

and then the governance, like the bounds of that, those are old problems. Those are not new problems.

when it comes to the things that you're watching, as signals, how can you tell when things are working? especially when you're when you're not racing to keep up and compete and dominate and grow and do the default kind of business path that

the world outside us is engineered for. you have a much more thoughtful approach. but there are still things that you're watching.

7:32 Omar Ladak

we tend to wildly overindex the things we can count and show.

7:38 Sam Rogers

Yes.

7:39 Omar Ladak

if everyone wrote on a list, what are the most important things in my, I'll use life because that's the conversation we're having now, in my life, and you wrote down these ten things. And then we wrote beside each of those ten things, how quantifiable is it, how countable, that would be column A. And then the second column would be how visible is it to other people? How showable. So there's quantifiable and there's visible.

And the things that are the most quantifiable and most visible naturally get indexed up in terms of how much energy we put into optimizing, maximizing, improving those variables. things that aren't very quantifiable and you can't show.

They're neither quantifiable nor can you show them, are really the most important things to you. So I'll give

8:25 Sam Rogers

Hm.

8:26 Omar Ladak

a personal example. When I when I became a dad, it was infinitely clear to me in a way that is hard to describe that this is the most important relational thing that I will do in my entire life. And if doing it well meant that I would have lower scores on some of these other things, it's a no-brainer to me.

And because the outside world can't see it, there isn't any way for me to show. No one can see what I feel inside my body, and you can't count it. It really is invisible to everyone except for me, and hopefully one other person in the universe called my daughter.

I'll provide a metaphor that has been helpful for me. When you're trying to drive towards particular kinds of outcomes. You really view the game that we're playing like being in a speedboat.

And regardless of the conditions of the sea and the environment, you just go in a straight line from where

9:19 Sam Rogers

Mm.

9:20 Omar Ladak

you are to where you're trying to get to. And life doesn't work this way. that's been my experience. It really is like sailing. So it's not that you're a leaf in the wind. It's not that you have no agency or

Ability to affect and control, it's that I can set an intention. make sure that my craft is as effective as possible, that my crew is as effective as possible, and then

9:44 Sam Rogers

Mm.

9:45 Omar Ladak

I must sail with whatever wind shows up. And the hardest part for the very driven person is when the wind is totally.

Totally

still.

Where the most wise thing to do is literally just sit there and read a book. there's nothing I can do to make the boat move until the wind comes. but sometimes it's blowing directly in your face, and we're gonna have to tack really hard. And it just feels like it's taking a long time. progress

As measured by the distance I'm moving towards my objective, has to be attuned to what are the conditions that I'm in. Now the challenge with that is I can also use that as a whole bunch of internal excuses. I can also say, like, look at that, I'm not going so fast because dot dot dot. And so there isn't any way I found any ways not to be able to have judgment about what am I doing that's effective and what am I

Doing that's not effective given that I'm in the conditions that I'm in. I spend a lot of energy thinking about the destination. Where am I actually trying to go? What am I really trying to accomplish? in life, for me, that is freedom. I really am trying to accomplish a free life. And freedom doesn't mean I play golf every day.

means the things that bring me joy with the people that bring me joy and avoiding or minimizing the things that don't bring me joy and the kinds of people that don't bring me joy. heading in that direction, right? where am I heading is

effort number one. Effort number two is okay, I have a vessel. regardless of the wind, I put energy into how do I make the vessel that I'm in, whether that's the business organization or if it's my life, my body, mind, heart and spirit, how can

I make that as effective

As possible. in lots of different conditions. And then every vessel has a crew. I'm not the only person in the business. I'm not the only person in my life. How can I put some energy into enabling the crew to be as effective as it can be in lots of different conditions? So those three things. Where am I going? how effective is my vessel? How effective is

the crew and I'm spending my energy on trying to attune into those things. And to get still enough every day.

As a practice that I can attune to when I've gone astray. Not just that the wind is not going in the perfect or optimal or easiest direction for me to get to where I'm going, but regardless of the wind, I'm actually heading the wrong way. or my crew is really having a problem. And so those concepts help me tune out lots of things that over the long run.

don't affect the objective of the game. Whatever I've set. You know and and I get to determine what the objective of the game is 'cause I'm playing it. I

12:31 Sam Rogers

there's so many things I love about the analogy. first off, you you probably didn't know. I actually used to live on a sailboat. I learned to sail in the San Francisco Bay,

12:39 Omar Ladak

Nice. Beautiful.

12:41 Sam Rogers

to feel the pull of the sail, in one hand, and feel the rudder, you're striking a balance between these two forces, which are often in different directions. You know, we're being

12:53 Omar Ladak

Yes.

12:54 Sam Rogers

pulled this way, we're being blown this way. How is it that we're gonna harness that power?

To set our sights on where we want to go. even when you have full command of those forces, you're you're watching those signals.

There's still decision, of how it is that we're gonna move this craft, how it is that we're gonna interact with the crew. to your point about listening to things that are a thousand years old, this is a story as old as Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, right? Of how it is that we manage our crew.

how it is that we will navigate what we encounter along the way and get to where it is that we we want to go

13:30 Omar Ladak

you asked a little bit or alluded to the idea of alignment. and again trying to bridge between the co concept of in a business and for me in my life,

why, ultimately why is it that we're doing any of what we're doing? Sometimes the answer to that question is not that high minded. It really is, I'm trying to make some money. That's fine. That's life. but getting honest about that's the why. The the real why. Why are we doing this? Because if if we put

language that isn't clear about why we're doing any of this. It's the ultimate thing that helps define that sort of destination. And then the second layer for me is who. With whom do I want to do this? And so if it's entirely AI generated, it right may be just me and computers. Okay, great, those are the who's fine. but the who is a is a powerful

second layer. And then the third one after that is the where. the kinds of business things around, what would be our vision or what would be our strategic goals the last and the big four questions we have is what now. So if we start with why and then who and then where and then what now and the what now is really energizing the idea

that the wind is also part of this and we don't control it. we do lay out strategies in our businesses for multiple years and all of that is really preamble to say what's gonna happen in the next ninety days.

14:53 Sam Rogers

Mm.

14:53 Omar Ladak

What are we really gonna accomplish? and then the alignment comes from getting as clear as possible across those big questions.

with the people that are involved. So in our case it's people, you know, there's six hundred

15:04 Sam Rogers

Mm-hmm.

15:05 Omar Ladak

people across our organizations and there's however many leaders and one of the things that I'm focused on is at least the senior leaders, and then my encouragement to them is for them to try to create clarity into the into the organization below them. How clear are people about why we're going

Who we're doing this with, where we're going, and what are we focused on right now. asking the question repeatedly, and for us we do it monthly,

we've got scorecards and all that stuff, just like you'd have in any other business. But the fundamental question that's being asked is not what is all the data saying or what are all these numbers. The numbers are information along with conversation into a very straightforward sounding question. How are we doing and why? And how are we doing is more complicated than did we make money this month?

15:53 Sam Rogers

Yeah.

15:54 Omar Ladak

We you know, sometimes we could have made money and still not feel like we're doing very well because four other things that are important to us went to the wrong direction. Or we can have not made very much money in a particular business, but we feel great because four things that are really important to us strategically have occurred. And understanding not just how we're doing, but why allows people to then figure out what things should I keep doing?

to to get more of the things that are making us perform in a way that makes us feel good. Now what things might I shift because some things aren't working. And I I can't figure that out unless I know not just how we're doing, but why is it the case that I feel like we're doing well or not well in our organization, it's pretty analogue. I mean it's not like there isn't any digitization to this exercise. There is, but it's

the fundamental questions and the conversations that occur to create clarity are very analog in our world because it's really humans. You know, we have lots

16:50 Sam Rogers

Yeah.

16:51 Omar Ladak

of humans.

16:52 Sam Rogers

this is a a great segue to go towards the the subtractions angle. just to reflect on a a couple things you said, I want to call back to the very first issue of signals and subtractions of our our first newsletter was about speed versus velocity. And having that idea of of velocity.

as the why that we're going that way. And the the speed is like how

17:12 Omar Ladak

Yes.

17:15 Sam Rogers

i i we can feel great that we're running really fast we can feel relaxed that we're going really slow either one of those things by themselves may or may not be related to the velocity because we can go very fast

In the wrong direction. And we're

17:32 Omar Ladak

Yes.

17:34 Sam Rogers

only getting farther from from that why of where we want to go. We can go very slowly

17:37 Omar Ladak

Yes. Yes.

17:39 Sam Rogers

in the direction of where we want to go still be winning the race, still be completely aligned

17:43 Omar Ladak

Yes.

17:44 Sam Rogers

and moving at the speed that's right for

the crew in that that sailboat analogy that we have. So thanks.

17:50 Omar Ladak

Yeah. And as

we mix these two concepts, if you think about speed and velocity where velocity includes direction, in the physics sense, like if w everyone remembers back to their grade nine physics, the teacher draws a little vector on the board. And the vector is a straight line.

And so the image that will occur inside most people's heads, I suspect, even when we talk about velocity, is the idea that I should be going in a straight line towards where I'm trying to get, at least, but I need to be going in the right straight line. And the added element I'm trying to introduce is the line is not going to be straight.

It won't be It just doesn't work that way. And the wind's gonna do what the wind's gonna do. And so sometimes it's gonna feel like, wait a second, I'm going in what feels like the wrong direction or away from my target. But in reality I'm leveraging the wind I have to the best of my ability. But the idea

being that there are conditions that you just don't control and navigating those conditions is part of the exercise in my experience.

18:53 Sam Rogers

just to share a little of my own signal that was inspired from our conversation before, I ended up making a new offering, which I will

Put out to everybody freely at sigsub.show/takeaways. The takeaway for this episode is an agentic skill that you can point at whatever digital architecture you'd like. I was pointing it at all of my GitHub repos, of which there's about 50, and looking at them from this kind of perspective: is it well expressed?

Where this project is going. Because

19:29 Omar Ladak

Hmm.

19:30 Sam Rogers

that is what my crew, my agentic crew, is aligning to, like in a very literal sense. Having that expressed makes it easy for the different agents that I'm working with across all the different LLMs to have the same focus and not to keep their own distinct memory, which can sometimes be at counter-purposes depending on.

When they received instructions from me or how I phrased it, having some artifact that's there for them. I've been making this a practice for a while, but I hadn't done the analysis of looking through everything that I have and making sure that the same kinds of instruction sets are there so that it's predictable for them.

And there's more and more elements that can become scripted at that point. So there's less kind of decision-making capacity that's needed in an AI sense. There's less tokens that are being burned around this, there's less waste. And they can they can tack themselves. so doing that analysis was my signal for the last week. And of those 50 there were 40 of them that

20:35 Omar Ladak

Mm.

20:36 Sam Rogers

weren't to the current standard. like I was running a security workflow then that was one of my early ones that's still standing today that I haven't revised. the automation is great, but what am I automating towards? And how well aligned is that?

20:50 Omar Ladak

Yeah.

I was an analog engineer, a mechanical engineer, but what came up for me is often the engineering mind starts with the question, what could I do? Right? Like

21:01 Sam Rogers

Yes.

21:02 Omar Ladak

and so it starts with this very and it and then it gets excited about the very interesting and exciting things that I can do. And then

21:08 Sam Rogers

Yes.

21:09 Omar Ladak

it it starts doing stuff.

and that stuff's not free to do. an encouragement that I have for all the engineering minds out there is to pause

how do we get the pause that says not just what can I do, but will that be a useful thing even if I'm successful? And there's

21:26 Sam Rogers

Yes.

21:27 Omar Ladak

really just isn't a market for this. And I don't throw the engineering mind under the bus because a lot of things you try to create, you you can't know exactly what the market is going to be for something that has no market yet. particularly in spaces where you're creating very new things

people can't know they might need something that's never existed before. That is true. And it's also an excuse sometimes not to think deeply, at least at milestones. You know, one could decide, okay, at certain milestones, I'm gonna pause and I'm gonna ask myself, who the hell is gonna use this and why would they use it and why would it be valuable for them? Just because I can keep making it better doesn't mean that I should keep going down this path.

22:08 Sam Rogers

thank you for going there because now I I want to return it to your businesses and how you've designed,

22:13 Omar Ladak

Mm.

22:14 Sam Rogers

because the kinds of businesses in your portfolio are not fast businesses. They're

22:18 Omar Ladak

Mm-hmm.

22:19 Sam Rogers

they're very slow businesses.

22:21 Omar Ladak

Yes.

So I spent the first part of my career in the opposite of this. I was a management consultant and became a partner in a small firm and we gave advice. We we wrote reports for a living. we did well, lots of good fortune. but it was a very conceptual thing to do. And then as we sold that business and I was looking to get into something else, I wasn't in anticipating that what I would end up doing is own construction and industrial companies.

But we bought one and number one, going back to I was the architect of my own life, I really liked the people. like, these people are down to earth. they they build things in the real world and they're wonderful to be with even though my background is not wildly overlapping

And then on the business side where we came to was, you know, there are a lot of very, very smart and talented people that are trying to do lots of very fast moving things. What what if we just went into what we called the slow river? What if we

23:16 Sam Rogers

Mm-hmm.

23:16 Omar Ladak

could find a river that moved very, very slowly? and so we did this on purpose. The first one was

a bit by accident And then we built an investment thesis around that set of ideas So the construction and industrial services space might be like 12-13% of GDP and most of it's not that good

economically. And so we tried to develop some way of thinking about how could we find the things that were actually good within this large pool on average is not that good.

it was a choice that probably isn't the right choice for everybody, but for us We were playing a game that was gonna last a very, very, very long time. So we weren't thinking about, gosh, how could we build the fastest growing thing over a few years? It really was, well I wanna be able to keep doing this when I'm 60,

70, 80 years old in some way that's enjoyable and fun and you know where success is still meaningful And so we architected a path in which we thought we had a decent chance of that being true and an element of that path was the areas in which we focus on.

24:18 Sam Rogers

That's perfect. And getting into our subtractions then, there's a lot that had to fall away to do that. and that's not without sacrifice, right? Like you're leaving something on the table when you're making choices that way. I'm curious how it is that you say an evaluating a potential acquisition or something like that.

24:38 Omar Ladak

Mm-hmm.

24:39 Sam Rogers

How it is that you know when it's time to add, and and maybe a little bit of that journey of what the subtraction was, how it

24:47 Omar Ladak

Hmm.

24:48 Sam Rogers

is that you're watching that.

24:50 Omar Ladak

You know, as I started to spend more time with very old things, I also at the same time started to cull as much as I could the inputs that were coming into my head. And I have a busy life. I got businesses and I got a family and I've got so it's not like I could cull it to zero. I don't get to be a monk in a mountain as much as I would love that from time to time.

25:10 Sam Rogers

Mm-hmm.

25:11 Omar Ladak

but

I really did try to create as much quiet as I could spaces within the day and the week in which there really was almost no signal. I'm not a meditation master by any stretch of the imagination, but I get as still as I can with whatever capability I've got for attention on a daily basis and that stillness practice has been a really powerful.

Powerful one for me to create a little bubble of close to no external signal.

what I found was when I'm thinking about things that are gonna unfold over two

five, ten, fifteen, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years, it's like things that are important will still be important in a month. And so whether I read everything today or not, it turned out it didn't matter. to get there I had to run some experiments. So on the information side, that was the the sort of subtracting. And as I got stiller, I got more confidence in the things in my life that were really

important to me.

I'll give a practical example on the acquisition side. I came up with a rule one night in meditation called six hours door to door. And it was a principle. And the idea was we wouldn't look at an acquisition anywhere that took us longer than six hours to get to from our office. plane sitting at the airport, driving, the whole thing.

less than six hours. And the reason was if I left at six in the morning from my house or from the office, I could get there by noon, I could have lunch with the team, I could have an afternoon of meetings, I could have a dinner with people, I could have a morning of meetings, I could have a lunch, I could leave at one o'clock, and I'd be back at seven, and I would only have missed one bath time.

And so six hours door-to-door is not a geography. like, well, which airports can you get to in three hours? How far? And we had real tests at some point. There was this beautiful acquisition we were looking at just outside Austin and it took like seven hours to get to. We just said no. We actually went for the first trip to go meet the owners I was like, forget it. There was one in Hawaii that literally had a physical moat.

It's on an island. It's beautiful business. You couldn't get a better like you know, s midsized business. we were like, it takes seven hours to get there. We're out. And two bath times, sorry.

27:12 Sam Rogers

Yeah. Two bath times, sorry.

27:16 Omar Ladak

we can focus there for a good while before we run out of runway. So I give that as a practical example of how

subtracting some of the information flow into my mind created more space for me to be still, and from that stillness, I created a very simple idea. Like it's like I can communicate it in a post-it note, and then because it was so simple, I could then sit with my partners and say, I think this would be a good idea, and this is the reason. And we could create clarity and alignment around it.

that's the idea we've got and we've implemented it for eleven years and once we implemented it there was no need to talk about it so much anymore. We had tested it a few times and opportunities come in and literally one of the first things somebody does is map out how long would it take to get to the office. that's too far. We're out.

If I am successful, am I going to create enough value that it's worth it? And if the answer to that question thoughtfully is, I don't know. If it's not an obvious yes, I wouldn't do it.

It should be obvious. Otherwise, if it's marginal, it the if there's one thing from investing, it's a different world that I've kind of taken away. if it's not just like super obvious, it's just a no. And

28:23 Sam Rogers

Yeah.

28:24 Omar Ladak

if you need a fancy spreadsheet to figure out whether the answer is yes, you probably don't have enough safety factor because there are so many risks, so many variables that you will stumble across as you turn your idea or your experiment.

Into reality that you can't predict in advance. And not leaving enough buffer or safety margin just erodes all the value at some point. And it's why I think most things that start don't work out is that It wasn't a no-brainer. We had to really think hard to come up with a, yeah, that's that would be useful if. And then the the bullet points under if, you know, there's 17 bullet points,

If we can really identify things where it's like, this is a no-brainer, and no-brainers we should then put our shoulder into. And you because you can only put your shoulder into so many things. That's been my kind of broad experience.

that's an old Warren and Charlie. this isn't a new idea, it's a very old idea. The inner scorecard versus the outer scorecard. In fact, that's a stoic idea. It's a 2,000-year-old idea. This is not new. But it, at least for me, is not easy. And so the repeated reminder that comes when I take slight steps in the wrong direction. shoot. Okay, how do I reorient this? That is

been a powerful practice for me.

29:35 Sam Rogers

that's fantastic having having rubrics like that that are so simple to express and so easy to understand. creates a real constraint to to operate within. my subtraction, when I started looking through all of the different

obligations that I've created for myself by hosting things in in open source ways or or creating side businesses for myself. I hadn't had the strong definitions that you had had about do I want to create something where it really has to come to me to solve.

or do I want to create something for which there is an alternative? And how do I specify that, that fallback? So you'll find in that skill if you run it, it's not just identifying who is the accountable party, but who is the backup to that accountable party, working in regulated industry, oftentimes you have to have accountability specified.

for, you know, regulatory purposes. But they don't always identify the backup. And that's a question that I have learned to ask because it exposes where the real ownership should be. how it got to be there is one story. But where is that trajectory that we're heading? Like where does this really belong? Where does it really live? so

30:53 Omar Ladak

Yes.

30:53 Sam Rogers

as a result, inspired

By Omar, am looking at the obligations that I've created for myself and making some hard cuts. I don't have an equivalent to the six-hour rule yet, but starting to craft some things like that that can be cleanly expressed and that I can allow others to support me on.

thanks so much, Omar, for coming to the show. thanks for inspiring me to look at how I'm counting differently and re-index on the parts that really are most important

set that goal, that destination and align to that and tack as appropriate. it's been great having you here and I hope we get the chance to chat some more.

31:35 Omar Ladak

Beautiful, I too, Sam.

31:37 Sam Rogers

Well, thanks everyone for joining. that's our show.

please go click follow, subscribe all the places. Sunday is issue sixty-nine of the newsletter. One signal worth watching, one subtraction worth making. Now go find yours.